Curse

around · Jun 07, 2006, 08:42 PM // 20:42

The ultimate answer to any kind of spike (apart from blood):

Shelter+Soul Twisting. If a rit runs this, it's more or less the same as having prot spirit on all the members of your team, and spikes will lose ther edge.

I really don't see why people are whining when such a simple counter exists.

JR · Jun 07, 2006, 08:51 PM // 20:51

A "simple counter" that uses up an entire character, that may not suit the purpose of your build at all?

Although I do agree partially, even if your method of argument is flawed. Counters exist, and on most maps you have the ability to punish their inflexibilty.

Life Bringer · Jun 07, 2006, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Ok several things: "A "simple counter" that uses up an entire character, that may not suit the purpose of your build at all?". If the current envirionment of gvg is spike heavy then it is perfectly reasonalable to run a soul twisting shelter ritualist which causes a lot of problems for spike team so if one character causer a lot of problems I think it is unfair to call it a waste.

"Sure, spike builds are very difficult to beat on certain maps. Why wouldn't they press that advantage? What kind of players/builder wouldn't take advantage of terrain? But certainly balanced builds are difficult for spike builds to cope w/ on certain maps as well? Does that not seem healthy for competitive gameplay?", "Running a spike build on certain maps is an option available to everybody", "If a guild HAS to be the underdog in order to get the map they need for spiking, aren't they susceptible to the very same tactic from underdog balanced teams?" I couldnt agree more Shen.

"I think the biggest difference is that even the best warrior spike in the world is counterable.": this is completely true of a spike.
So they coth can be countered: 1 all.
" Very few warrior spikes are so perfect that the monks can't see them coming or counter them, and certainly I've never seen a team that can do spikes like that consistently with warriors.
On the other hand, a caster/ranger spike bypasses monks completely."
(completely bypass is an overstatement btw but I know what you mean) however balanced can split much more effectively than spike: 2 all.

So as you can see it is pretty even: both can be countered (in different ways) and spike can go through monks more easily but balanced can split better. So they are imo on an even footing so I think it is unfair to be predudice against spike.

icemonkey · Jun 07, 2006, 09:59 PM // 21:59

its not even. Theres no way one rit with soul twisting and shelter will do anything against a finely tuned spike.

FC air spike, they will gale that rit so much he wont even be able to move, you would have to bring ward of stability and at that point you have become more inflexible than the FC air spike, again the spike team completely eliminate the other team from doing anything about what you are gonna do to them. Fish in a barrel, people don't like that.

against a ranger spike? wel this Rt is mostly worthless before match even begins because R spike generally is much more lower damage hits, although this depends. but the rangers also have plenty of interrupts, and are fully capable to deal with this Rt, rendering him useless, and then performing their nearly invisible spike, making you fish in a barrel, poeple do not like this.

necro spike, its life steal gg shelter is a moot point, now you have really wasted a character, we are back to fish in a barrel, people do not like this.

FoC spike, well thats a little different but honestly i havnt seen it since the championships.

as far as this point JR- brings up about good balanced teams beating a spike team becasue they can cause the disruption, yes i am a firm beleiver in this, but that can be dealt with. But honestly RnS is currently 7 on the ladder, i think before they have GvG'd today so clearly there is a small amount of people that are effective at disrupting this spike. Its pretty much beating everybody, because its too hard to shut down, making teams feel like fish in a barrel, people do not like this.

I don't like these spikes, i feel cheated when i get beat by them because i feel they are cheap. Its not actually unfair(they arent cheating) they follow the rules of the game, I don't have any logical reasons, BUT I HAVE MY REASONS. Its a matter of how people feel, that doesnt require logical reasons, people feel it is lame and you know why. There is no question in this thread.
Its just a hassel you have to deal with when yer on the ladder.

Egg Shen · Jun 07, 2006, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Feeling things are "cheap" is scrub talk. I'm only referencing the Play to Win article by saying that and I'm not actually calling YOU a scrub. But I feel it was one of the more valid points in that article.

I couldn't GVG my way out of a wet paper sack, so I'm really, really not trying to be insulting. And I totally get what you mean, because the few times my guild has gone up against even semi-competent spikes, I was dejected and felt like a helpless fish in a barrel. But I guess I never chalked it up to their build. . . I chalked it up to my guild being poopey at GVG and thought we needed a lot more practice.

I don't know. Maybe coming from a Magic: The Gathering background makes me less judgmental about 'gimmick' builds because on a certain level, ALL builds are gimmick builds depending on your perspective. From the perspective of a spike build, a balanced build can't stand up to a fair, 8 on 8 fight, so their gimmick is to split up and scurry around harrassing the NPC's.

It's like the control player in Magic. Playing Permission decks generally requires the most in-game skill and knowledge, and in the proper hands they can be devastating.

However, as old sets rotate out and new sets rotate in, sometimes the power level of a play-style can change. Suddenly a Permission-style control deck, even though requiring more skill to play well, just isn't capable of shutting down a weenie horde which is based on a quick beatdown. The permission player then has a choice to make. Either they recognize that the metagame has changed and alter their playstyle, or maybe even their entire deck, accordingly, or they sit back and curse the gimmicky weenie build, implying that the person running it hasn't the skill they have and only win because Wizards of the Coast is stupid.

While that may be true from the perspective of in-game tactics and strategy, clearly the less skilled player had a better grasp of the meta-game and played to win.

Jeez, I'm writing a book. Sorry for the long winded post.

JR · Jun 08, 2006, 12:32 AM // 00:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by icemonkey

But honestly RnS is currently 7 on the ladder, i think before they have GvG'd today so clearly there is a small amount of people that are effective at disrupting this spike.

Spike is the fastest way to farm the ladder, so Spike guilds will naturally hit the high end of the ladder first. The difference is that they tend not to stay there.

No offense to RnS meant with this post, I am not talking specifically about you.

Red Locust · Jun 08, 2006, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

The reason why some people consider spiking skill-less is simple.

Running a spike build is aiming to beat people quite simply with your build. Killing them fast enough with a simple system of counting and pressing buttons. The downside of builds like this is how inflexible they are. If you can get the other team on a map with very little room to move, you have a huge advantage. Again an example where Spike is favoured not by skill, but by a secondary factor.

I agree with that. First thing that comes to mind is the recent tourney final. EW vs. iB. EW gets to pick the map, so they pick a spike map and spike build games 1 & 3...you could arguably say those games were dominated by EW. Game 2, EW didn't have that luxury and had to play on an open map, and got dominated by iB. Unfortunately iB had to guest to EW's spike-friendly map twice, and lost in a best of three.

I know there's more to it than that, but from what you could see on observer, it was hard to tell whether or not EW were really better than iB skill-wise. They just chose the right map and the right build, and were able to choose 2 out of 3 maps. The spike won those 2 games for EW more than anything else imo.

And that goes for all spike builds, not just EW's.

icemonkey · Jun 08, 2006, 03:08 AM // 03:08

I grant you that its a scrub thing to say thats a "cheap" build, thats not playing to win.

its also true these "gimmick" spikes peak at some point then slowly drop on the ladder.

its also true that you can disrupt them and win with a 'balanced' build

but forget all that. If i play RnS(or any of these spikes, not trying to pick on RnS) on their guild hall and lose, im not gonna think darn they are good they really outplayed me, I am gonna think wow thats a stupid build I got trapped into their game and had no chance, thats not why i play guild wars, to be helpless.

Yes people think those builds are lame , and no they usually dont consider it "just another build" ....and you didn't have to ask anyone, you knew that.

i mean really, think about it. If two balanced teams have a close match and fight ill VOD both teams have a lot of fun, win or lose. Most don't have fun against these spike teams.

Life Bringer · Jun 08, 2006, 07:47 AM // 07:47

What if you lost on your map? Btw we don't run the fire map.
Also we play to win and have fun and wuth our build and play style we achieve both. And this sounds selfish but we don't play the game for other peoples enjoyement we do it for ours, thats why everone does.

Patrograd · Jun 08, 2006, 09:02 AM // 09:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

I think the biggest difference is that even the best warrior spike in the world is counterable. The monks can see it coming and they can prevent it. Thus, if the opponent is getting kills through a warrior spike it's because your monks made an error, or because they were overpowered. Very few warrior spikes are so perfect that the monks can't see them coming or counter them, and certainly I've never seen a team that can do spikes like that consistently with warriors.

On the other hand, a caster/ranger spike bypasses monks completely. Even the best monk simply can't counter a good caster/ranger spike. It's all down to whether you disrupt them or not.

.

Hmm

Well, to me, it seems that a team which relies on its monks to prevent damage is going to get beaten by spike, and most probably by a good balanced team too.

My observation would be that the best teams look to their monks as the very last line of defence, after everything else has failed. They build into each and every character not only self survival, but team defence. Spike doesnt hurt these teams, becasue they arent relying on their monks for their defence.

You say that even the best warrior spike in the game is counterable, well this is just becasue teams naturally bring the counters to warrior spike

. Warrior spike is, imo, harder to counter than ranger or ele spike, and requires a far greater investment in time and skillslots, but people are just in this mindset in the current meta of bringing counter warrior stuff but not bringing counter caster and other disruption. As a result, they lose to caster and ranger spike. of course, if they only brought the counters to caster and ranger spike they would get beaten by warriors. You need to have the counters to both in your build and know how to use them. It goes without saying that the teams at the top of the ladder dont make this mistake.

No build is capable of completely bypassing another team's defences, unless that team is built poorly. If you lose to spike, dont bitch and grumble about spike being overpowered, look to your build and your tactics and your co-ordination and think about what you could do better next time. A good balanced team shouldnt lose to spike imo as it is intrisically a weak build design.

Helll is for Heroes · Jun 08, 2006, 09:11 AM // 09:11

eoebomb.

Its quite hard to stop if you are'nt 100% on the ball.

yesitsrob · Jun 08, 2006, 10:37 AM // 10:37

in GVG?

I suppose it's lame in HA, but 80% of the builds that are in there are probably falling into this "lame" category that is being discussed

Vanquisher · Jun 08, 2006, 11:39 AM // 11:39

Quote:

FC air isnt a 3 2 1 spike its 3 2 gale the target and both their monks 1 spike. Someone could arguable write a program to do that.

Very few teams playing FC Air spike do this. I know when we farmed some rating we did, but aside from that, I haven't played a team who does, aside from Rift when they used to run it.

dag_nefzen · Jun 08, 2006, 02:31 PM // 14:31

Some builds to me are much like using a sledgehammer to smash a nut. Others have a certain artistry to them.

Would I would ever call a build cheap or lame?

No, I don't think so as I don't think I see builds as black and white but more shades of grey. Personally, I'd I think I'd prefer to be thought of as an average painter than the world's best demolition expert.

Everyone likes to throw a firecracker about every now and then though.

^^The thoughts of a very average painter.

Life Bringer · Jun 08, 2006, 02:55 PM // 14:55

"No, I don't think so as I don't think I see builds as black and white but more shades of grey."

Thank you his is how I think people should view builds. I will admit that I persoanally dislike dual smite however I recognise their right to run it and we have the exact smae opportunity to run it so therefore I dont bitch about which a lot of people seem to do re spike.

dag_nefzen · Jun 08, 2006, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Like you say, people have personal likes and dislikes in terms of builds and how they like to play. As long as builds have more to do with tactics and play style than balance issues, then I have no problem with anything.

Dark Helmet · Jun 08, 2006, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesitsrob

in GVG?

I suppose it's lame in HA, but 80% of the builds that are in there are probably falling into this "lame" category that is being discussed

Yeah, I definitely hate that in HA. People just "farm" faction all day using that, which isn't really "skill" based at all.

Of course, the build isn't infallible... a balanced team I was on actually beat one of those after everyone died. It was hilarious. I've never seen a worse team than them... they couldn't figure out how to kill the Ghost for some reason, then we rezed and killed them.

I don't like Spike like a lot of other people. Yes, some good guilds use it. But the number of guilds that do use it (and aren't necessarily any good) get on my nerves. I have plenty of respect for the people who use it, and own with it. But I hate losing to inept teams who can barely pull it off, but win anyway. Yes, most builds do contain some element of cheapness, but spike is just plain annoying.

Thom · Jun 08, 2006, 09:23 PM // 21:23

People say spike isn't skill based, but any old scrub team can't get to the top of the ladder spiking. Top 100-200 teams know who the uber-spike guilds are and they will be looking for the split or counter before the first encounter. Somehow these uber-spike guilds maintain their rating. Everyone knew EP was going to spike... no one was suprised when a bunch of rangers ran out, yet the still beat the crap out of most everyone they played. Ranger spike has been nerf since than, but DEER did the same thing last season.

Most "balanced" teams are pressure-spike, which means they get most of their kills in an 8v8 confrontation through a spike. It may look prettier, but it comes down to the same thing: a combo with damage greater than 550 which is well timed.

People keep talking about breaking a spike. Sometimes this can be done, but the opponent takes this into account. A perfectly timed spike can only be beaten by interrupts and a good spike team is all ready for your interrupts. Lots of times you run a spike that can put out 700+ max damage knowing you are going to have some damage avoided. I think 4 ranger spikers were calculated to have 900+ damage on one volley, but perhaps that was before the orders nerf. Even with aegis up, this ranger spike has at least a 50% chance at a kill. Fight a spike straight up at your own risk.

Spike is never going to be a dominant tournement build unless something is really broken, but it is something most teams are going to have to deal with at some point. Test the opponents movement or run a pressure spike straight up and live with the DP you'll take. Realize that average spike teams will make mistakes which you will have to exploit. Try to play your game or at least don't let them play their game... but that goes for all teams and builds.

Red Locust · Jun 08, 2006, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

Spike is never going to be a dominant tournement build unless something is really broken, but it is something most teams are going to have to deal with at some point. Test the opponents movement or run a pressure spike straight up and live with the DP you'll take. Realize that average spike teams will make mistakes which you will have to exploit. Try to play your game or at least don't let them play their game... but that goes for all teams and builds.

Was it not dominant in the last tournament? Because I lost count of the number of spike builds that were played (and won) in the tourney, including the semi-finals and finals. The fact that some of the maps are so limiting in terms of movement just screams "spike, please".

JR · Jun 08, 2006, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

Was it not dominant in the last tournament?

Not really?

The FoC spike on Imperial was the only one that springs to mind as being truly succesfull.